Bush on Fighting

[monk222]

~
"You don't create terrorists by fighting back. You defeat the terrorists by fighting back."

-- President George W. Bush

Dubya was arguing that Kerry is using "upside-down" logic when it comes to the War on Terror. And I'm afraid the quote above may be a good reason why Bush may win, after all, notwithstanding what one supposes was another verbal gaffe, when he characterized the swift capture of Baghdad as "a catastrophic success," which may be seen by some as an ironically shiny gem.

If nothing else, Bush is Texas tough and a fighter, and voters may feel that that is what we need.

As Monk lamented to another, regarding Kerry's falling numbers, "Why couldn't we get a war hero who wasn't a war protester?"
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Comments

[queensugar.livejournal.com]

Calm down. Sometimes, posts like this make me wonder if you're not a closet Bush supporter, as when anything is less than ideal, you start announcing his impending win. There's no way to know how this race will unfold. Wait and watch.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

You really do have a certain perceptual touch, a sensitivity. No, I'm not a Bush supporter, as I dread what would become of our domestic situation with another four years of Bush - more massive tax cuts for the ultra-wealthy and larger deficits and more denial of big structural problems with such things as education and healthcare, not to mention more Ashcroft and his Christian fundamentalist justice, as well as the political uses of our terror concerns - and then there's the Supreme Court!!

Yet, I confess that I worry a little whether Kerry might be a bigger nightmare when it comes to the War on Terror. I'm afraid he might be too much of a Jimmy Carter when it comes to foreign policy - beautiful ideals that just don't work in the world as we know it - and we can worse afford another Carter these days.

I have been growing more doubtful about Kerry, but I'm willing to cull a little faith in support of him.

[queensugar.livejournal.com]

I disagree with you passionately, but you know that. The world situation right now is PRECISELY the reason we need a Kerry... someone more, to use his phrase, sensitive to complex global currents, but staying tough where we need it.

I would expect that a Kerry White House might borrow some advice from the old Clinton team, who nobody can really argue was anything short of a master of foreign relations.

I think it goes without saying that Bush foreign policy is poised on the brink of disaster. His ideas do NOT work in the world... they may ram temporary solutions through, but they cannot and never will accomplish anything like lasting solutions. They only shove dirt under the carpet where it can fester and grow worse. They are not global ideas for an interconnected world. They are shortsighted, brutish ideas that destroy any hope of achieving better things.

[queensugar.livejournal.com]

Also, Bush's comment above perfectly illustrates that brutish, overly simplistic manner. I'm not sure whether he fails to grasp the concept he's supposedly opposing entirely, or whether he consciously simplifies it down to such a phrase. Either way, he is doing more harm than good in the world, and ultimately, more harm than good to American security.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

When we are talking about an enemy who would love nothing more than to cause an America Hiroshima and to do as much death and destruction as possible, I'm not as confident as you that Bush's simple brute understanding isn't the only rational response, as the opposing side, these jihadists, are even more brutal.

[queensugar.livejournal.com]

Again, dumbing the argument down to its basest possible form. Do you still fail to realize that NOBODY advocates leniency for actual militant terrorists? Have you listened to nothing that we have discussed over the last year? Do you still believe that terrorism exists in a vacuum?

Or do you persist in believing that throwing brute force around the world doesn't work to alienate allies, promote a much greater and growing anti-Americanism, fuel and even prove by example the terrorists' claims to their societies, not to mention breed sympathy for them and their actions in those societies?

I daresay that the "jihadists" (another term I hate) are a great deal more crafty than Bush when it comes to cause and effect. They actually understand how to work things to their advantage.

[queensugar.livejournal.com]

Gah. Now you're making me angry again. I'm SICK of this tacit suggestion that anybody, including a Kerry, in any way advocates leniency for terrorists. But hey, it must be nice to look at the world through such a narrow lens, eh?

And by the by, terrorists don't want to just cause destruction. They want power, and they get it through action.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

I do tend to think the world is pretty base. I don't know if that's a narrow lens or closer to the truth. I seldom feel disappointed by how things in the world actually work out anent my bleak expectations.

Though, I agree that, even in his approach, Bush has been too hamfisted and making life unneccesarily harder, such as in diplomacy.

Nobody is saying that Kerry is for leniency for terrorists, as we only may be doubtful whether he can fight them effectively.

[queensugar.livejournal.com]

The world is not pretty base, because being pretty base necessitates that there is only ever one reason or set of motives or set of beliefs. There isn't. It's far too intricate.

Perhaps things work out according to your bleak intentions because we allow idiots like Bushco to run the world... people who do nothing to make anything better.

Kerry will be a better terrorist fighter than Bush could ever hope to be, because he knows how to work with people rather than against them. Other than that, their positions in regards to terrorism are basically the same. The only tangible difference IMO is their approach to diplomacy.

[beentothemoon.livejournal.com]

because all y'all is damn hippies.

I'm going to bring you over to the dark side someday. Oh yes, the GOP force is strong in you. I think we all know that somewhere beneath your continual erection beats to cold, calculating heart of a Republican. It's just a matter of time.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, the GOP force is strong in you.

Hah, I'm afraid the foreign policy issues may just be throwing you. I've actually thought more of the neo-conservative position when it comes to foreign policy, which has put me at odds with my enlightened, progressive friends.

When I try to look at political questions analytically, I do put on the cold, calculating hat, seeing everything as being about power and advantage, perhaps more like a Republican, heh, but I cannot shake my old Utopian dreams for an Egalitarian world - perhaps the handicap of my marginal existence, always wanting the losers to do okay in the world, a hopeless dreamer in my own right...

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

I think the Republicans are trying to shape the issue as being between someone who will be an aggressive defender of America's interests and someone who is really more of an anti-military peacenik in spite of his Vietnam service.

Kerry has to be kept from being painted in that corner, drawing out that nuance about just being more focused about the uses of military power. This is perhaps the critical campaign battle this fall.

[antilapsarian.livejournal.com]

I'll give you a pass on what I think to be your sometimes debilitating weakness of negativity and neurosis. That's for another day, Monk. LOL

What I think is interesting with this particular Bushism is that it plays to American practicality. Americans, wrong as it may be, do tend to figure with that type of logic not seeing that brute force only is getting us in more trouble. If even a fairly smart fella like yourself buys it, lord knows what the stupid American masses think.

While I would never say terrorists are a brilliant bunch, I think Americans need to get off their Death Star "use the Force" attitude of fighting Darth Vader and realize that these "jihadists" are only half-crazy. Just as we're only half "good guys." They have an agenda, they have their reasons, they're not a bunch of 2D movie villains. There are real people not operating in a political void. There are real foreign policy concerns that Bush ignores with this "yeehaw, let's git 'em" stuff.

You and I always note, Monk, how our worldviews shape our philosophy, but I think in this instance Melissa and Pablo and myself have out-Monked you in a way. The idea that the terrorists are brutal and can only be dealt with using equally brutal means is a bit idealistic on your part, no? Ironic as that may be. In this case, your "harsh life" viewpoint is actually maybe wishful thinking that life could be that easy. If only humankind could appeal to the lowest means and instincts the answer is easy. But the unfortunate issue is that Bush's easy answers are too good to be true. But many Americans buy them hook line and sinker out of frustration over what to do in that complex world.

Really, I think that's the dominant theme of both conservative thought and Americanism in general is that people feel too overwhelmed and decide to just use a twisted Occam's Razor to just go with the simplest explanation for fear of being out of place in a complex world. Never mind that man behind the curtain...I am the great and powerful United States of America.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

I can see that Bergson influence. If only we could play with realities as we can with words and concepts!

These jihadists do have a political agenda - the expansion of Taliban-like Islam and the destruction of Israel, perhaps even the destruction of America for which war has been declared. I don't think we can bargain on these issues, so that their brute force must be met by brute force. It would be nice if we could just get togeether over tea and work out our differences, but...

[antilapsarian.livejournal.com]

That assumes, of course, that there is one political agenda of jihadist terrorists, too. Not every would-be terrorist wishes for a Taliban-like Islam ruling, the destruction of Israel, or even the destruction of America. I'm not sure we can bargain either, but I'm not sure brute force is the answer either...that's just too simplistic.